SQL Server 2000 EM vs. SQL Server 2005 MS

microsoft.public.sqlserver.tools

15 Oct 2007 8:55 PM

MZeeshan

One of the key differences we immediately noticed after upgrading to SQL
Server 2005 is the greatness of SQL Server 2000 EM -- its simplicity of
design, ease of use and the concept 'less is more'

For instance, if one wants to see the execution status of different jobs,
just expand the 'Jobs' (in Management --> SQL Server Agent) and all the
information appears on the right panel. No such luck with SQL Server 2005 MS
where surprisingly the right panel is useless most of the time. The
information requires multiple clicks to open multiple pop windows, cluttering
the desktop. Simple changes like switch to 'Single User' mode requires search
as it is hidden in the bottom of one of the database properties' selection.

Does Microsoft recognize this? And, if yes, then are there any plans to make
things SIMPLER? (can we somehow use SQL EM with 2005... I know it's a wishful
thinking but it doesn't hurt to ask).

--
Regards,
MZeeshan

15 Oct 2007 10:09 PM

Steve Dassin

No one knows what they recognize. MS's decision making hierachy is
a bigger secret than where Jimmy Hoffa is. They only real way to
get a better product is to publicly complain/critique them without
bashing. When a small minority rises to the level of a critical
mass someone may notice. Blind trust means no accountability.
To few people are willing to complain perhaps fearing they will
made a fool of. But it's ok to use a foolish part of a product.
If you're going to play the fool at least go down in flames :-)

www.beyondsql.blogspot.com

15 Oct 2007 10:14 PM

Erland Sommarskog

MZeeshan (mzeeshan@community.nospam) writes:
Show quote

> One of the key differences we immediately noticed after upgrading to SQL
> Server 2005 is the greatness of SQL Server 2000 EM -- its simplicity of
> design, ease of use and the concept 'less is more'
>
> For instance, if one wants to see the execution status of different
> jobs, just expand the 'Jobs' (in Management --> SQL Server Agent) and
> all the information appears on the right panel. No such luck with SQL
> Server 2005 MS where surprisingly the right panel is useless most of the
> time. The information requires multiple clicks to open multiple pop
> windows, cluttering the desktop. Simple changes like switch to 'Single
> User' mode requires search as it is hidden in the bottom of one of the
> database properties' selection.
>
> Does Microsoft recognize this? And, if yes, then are there any plans to
> make things SIMPLER? (can we somehow use SQL EM with 2005... I know it's
> a wishful thinking but it doesn't hurt to ask).

Personally, I think Mgmt Studio is great leap forwards compared to EM,
which was a real piece of crap in my opinion. Modal dialogs all over
the place. If you edit stored procedures through EM, ANSI_NULLS and
QUOTED_IDENTIFIER were off by default which is non-standard and does
not work with some functionality in SQL Server. Then again, some crap
were brought over as-is to SSMS, for instance the dreadful table designer.
Yes, the look is different. The bugs are exactly the same though.

On the other hand compared to Query Analyzer, SSMS has several weaknesses,
but QA was also a tool that was written with more understanding of
how SQL Server works.

As for the right panel being useless in SSMS, I don't agree. That's
they query window, and that's where I spend 99% of my time. For instance
setting the database in single-user mode:

ALTER DATABASE db SET SINGLE_USER WITH ROLLBACK IMMEDIATE

By the way, one great feature in SSMS, is that you can always get a
script for the command you are about to execute.

--
Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esq***@sommarskog.se

Books Online for SQL Server 2005 at
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/sql/2005/downloads/books.mspx
Books Online for SQL Server 2000 at
http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/books.mspx

16 Oct 2007 2:38 AM

MZeeshan

I know how to write statements and queries; I was just trying to compare two
GUI tools :)

(b/w, as an MVP, are you implying that Microsoft is moving away from GUI
based approach to command line?)

And... I also agree that as a newer release the product will have more
features than the old one...

But, the point I was trying to make was the abrupt removal of some of the
very good features available in SQL EM and its ease of use. And, this is just
not my opinion as I wrote this after gathering similar feedback from other
DBAs.

May be, we used to SQL MS as we migrate totally towards 2005 but as of now
we are in transition and I have this annoyance and frustration when I use SQL
2005 MS after using SQL 2000 EM.

--
Regards,
MZeeshan

Show quote

"Erland Sommarskog" wrote:

> MZeeshan (mzeeshan@community.nospam) writes:
> > One of the key differences we immediately noticed after upgrading to SQL
> > Server 2005 is the greatness of SQL Server 2000 EM -- its simplicity of
> > design, ease of use and the concept 'less is more'
> >
> > For instance, if one wants to see the execution status of different
> > jobs, just expand the 'Jobs' (in Management --> SQL Server Agent) and
> > all the information appears on the right panel. No such luck with SQL
> > Server 2005 MS where surprisingly the right panel is useless most of the
> > time. The information requires multiple clicks to open multiple pop
> > windows, cluttering the desktop. Simple changes like switch to 'Single
> > User' mode requires search as it is hidden in the bottom of one of the
> > database properties' selection.
> >
> > Does Microsoft recognize this? And, if yes, then are there any plans to
> > make things SIMPLER? (can we somehow use SQL EM with 2005... I know it's
> > a wishful thinking but it doesn't hurt to ask).
>
> Personally, I think Mgmt Studio is great leap forwards compared to EM,
> which was a real piece of crap in my opinion. Modal dialogs all over
> the place. If you edit stored procedures through EM, ANSI_NULLS and
> QUOTED_IDENTIFIER were off by default which is non-standard and does
> not work with some functionality in SQL Server. Then again, some crap
> were brought over as-is to SSMS, for instance the dreadful table designer.
> Yes, the look is different. The bugs are exactly the same though.
>
> On the other hand compared to Query Analyzer, SSMS has several weaknesses,
> but QA was also a tool that was written with more understanding of
> how SQL Server works.
>
> As for the right panel being useless in SSMS, I don't agree. That's
> they query window, and that's where I spend 99% of my time. For instance
> setting the database in single-user mode:
>
> ALTER DATABASE db SET SINGLE_USER WITH ROLLBACK IMMEDIATE
>
> By the way, one great feature in SSMS, is that you can always get a
> script for the command you are about to execute.
> --
> Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esq***@sommarskog.se
>
> Books Online for SQL Server 2005 at
> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/sql/2005/downloads/books.mspx
> Books Online for SQL Server 2000 at
> http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/books.mspx
>

16 Oct 2007 7:31 AM

Tibor Karaszi

I'm confident that you will like SSMS more and more as you work with it. Remember that an all new
tool takes time to adjust to.

Of course, SSMS will mature over time, for instance based on feedback at
http://connect.microsoft.com/sqlserver. Some improvements were made in sp2, but a new version is
where MS has the chance to do more work.

Also, both tools (EM and SSMS) are based on some framework. EM is based on MMC and a lot of the
behavior you see is because of this (for instance non-modal dialogs). SSMS is based on Visual Studio
and I can imagine that with such a framework, you get certain behaviors, whether you like it or not.
I'm not saying this to argue one way or another, just to add some information into the picture.

--
Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
http://sqlblog.com/blogs/tibor_karaszi

Show quote

"MZeeshan" <mzeeshan@community.nospam> wrote in message
news:3D6A05AC-CE86-410F-99B9-9058976B245B@microsoft.com...
>I know how to write statements and queries; I was just trying to compare two
> GUI tools :)
>
> (b/w, as an MVP, are you implying that Microsoft is moving away from GUI
> based approach to command line?)
>
> And... I also agree that as a newer release the product will have more
> features than the old one...
>
> But, the point I was trying to make was the abrupt removal of some of the
> very good features available in SQL EM and its ease of use. And, this is just
> not my opinion as I wrote this after gathering similar feedback from other
> DBAs.
>
> May be, we used to SQL MS as we migrate totally towards 2005 but as of now
> we are in transition and I have this annoyance and frustration when I use SQL
> 2005 MS after using SQL 2000 EM.
>
> --
> Regards,
> MZeeshan
>
>
> "Erland Sommarskog" wrote:
>
>> MZeeshan (mzeeshan@community.nospam) writes:
>> > One of the key differences we immediately noticed after upgrading to SQL
>> > Server 2005 is the greatness of SQL Server 2000 EM -- its simplicity of
>> > design, ease of use and the concept 'less is more'
>> >
>> > For instance, if one wants to see the execution status of different
>> > jobs, just expand the 'Jobs' (in Management --> SQL Server Agent) and
>> > all the information appears on the right panel. No such luck with SQL
>> > Server 2005 MS where surprisingly the right panel is useless most of the
>> > time. The information requires multiple clicks to open multiple pop
>> > windows, cluttering the desktop. Simple changes like switch to 'Single
>> > User' mode requires search as it is hidden in the bottom of one of the
>> > database properties' selection.
>> >
>> > Does Microsoft recognize this? And, if yes, then are there any plans to
>> > make things SIMPLER? (can we somehow use SQL EM with 2005... I know it's
>> > a wishful thinking but it doesn't hurt to ask).
>>
>> Personally, I think Mgmt Studio is great leap forwards compared to EM,
>> which was a real piece of crap in my opinion. Modal dialogs all over
>> the place. If you edit stored procedures through EM, ANSI_NULLS and
>> QUOTED_IDENTIFIER were off by default which is non-standard and does
>> not work with some functionality in SQL Server. Then again, some crap
>> were brought over as-is to SSMS, for instance the dreadful table designer.
>> Yes, the look is different. The bugs are exactly the same though.
>>
>> On the other hand compared to Query Analyzer, SSMS has several weaknesses,
>> but QA was also a tool that was written with more understanding of
>> how SQL Server works.
>>
>> As for the right panel being useless in SSMS, I don't agree. That's
>> they query window, and that's where I spend 99% of my time. For instance
>> setting the database in single-user mode:
>>
>> ALTER DATABASE db SET SINGLE_USER WITH ROLLBACK IMMEDIATE
>>
>> By the way, one great feature in SSMS, is that you can always get a
>> script for the command you are about to execute.
>> --
>> Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esq***@sommarskog.se
>>
>> Books Online for SQL Server 2005 at
>> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/sql/2005/downloads/books.mspx
>> Books Online for SQL Server 2000 at
>> http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/books.mspx
>>

16 Oct 2007 11:04 AM

MZeeshan

One final question: What should we expect in SQL 2008... any improvements say
better usage of the right panel etc.?

--
Regards,
MZeeshan

Show quote

"Tibor Karaszi" wrote:

> I'm confident that you will like SSMS more and more as you work with it. Remember that an all new
> tool takes time to adjust to.
>
> Of course, SSMS will mature over time, for instance based on feedback at
> http://connect.microsoft.com/sqlserver. Some improvements were made in sp2, but a new version is
> where MS has the chance to do more work.
>
> Also, both tools (EM and SSMS) are based on some framework. EM is based on MMC and a lot of the
> behavior you see is because of this (for instance non-modal dialogs). SSMS is based on Visual Studio
> and I can imagine that with such a framework, you get certain behaviors, whether you like it or not.
> I'm not saying this to argue one way or another, just to add some information into the picture.
>
> --
> Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
> http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
> http://sqlblog.com/blogs/tibor_karaszi
>
>
> "MZeeshan" <mzeeshan@community.nospam> wrote in message
> news:3D6A05AC-CE86-410F-99B9-9058976B245B@microsoft.com...
> >I know how to write statements and queries; I was just trying to compare two
> > GUI tools :)
> >
> > (b/w, as an MVP, are you implying that Microsoft is moving away from GUI
> > based approach to command line?)
> >
> > And... I also agree that as a newer release the product will have more
> > features than the old one...
> >
> > But, the point I was trying to make was the abrupt removal of some of the
> > very good features available in SQL EM and its ease of use. And, this is just
> > not my opinion as I wrote this after gathering similar feedback from other
> > DBAs.
> >
> > May be, we used to SQL MS as we migrate totally towards 2005 but as of now
> > we are in transition and I have this annoyance and frustration when I use SQL
> > 2005 MS after using SQL 2000 EM.
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > MZeeshan
> >
> >
> > "Erland Sommarskog" wrote:
> >
> >> MZeeshan (mzeeshan@community.nospam) writes:
> >> > One of the key differences we immediately noticed after upgrading to SQL
> >> > Server 2005 is the greatness of SQL Server 2000 EM -- its simplicity of
> >> > design, ease of use and the concept 'less is more'
> >> >
> >> > For instance, if one wants to see the execution status of different
> >> > jobs, just expand the 'Jobs' (in Management --> SQL Server Agent) and
> >> > all the information appears on the right panel. No such luck with SQL
> >> > Server 2005 MS where surprisingly the right panel is useless most of the
> >> > time. The information requires multiple clicks to open multiple pop
> >> > windows, cluttering the desktop. Simple changes like switch to 'Single
> >> > User' mode requires search as it is hidden in the bottom of one of the
> >> > database properties' selection.
> >> >
> >> > Does Microsoft recognize this? And, if yes, then are there any plans to
> >> > make things SIMPLER? (can we somehow use SQL EM with 2005... I know it's
> >> > a wishful thinking but it doesn't hurt to ask).
> >>
> >> Personally, I think Mgmt Studio is great leap forwards compared to EM,
> >> which was a real piece of crap in my opinion. Modal dialogs all over
> >> the place. If you edit stored procedures through EM, ANSI_NULLS and
> >> QUOTED_IDENTIFIER were off by default which is non-standard and does
> >> not work with some functionality in SQL Server. Then again, some crap
> >> were brought over as-is to SSMS, for instance the dreadful table designer.
> >> Yes, the look is different. The bugs are exactly the same though.
> >>
> >> On the other hand compared to Query Analyzer, SSMS has several weaknesses,
> >> but QA was also a tool that was written with more understanding of
> >> how SQL Server works.
> >>
> >> As for the right panel being useless in SSMS, I don't agree. That's
> >> they query window, and that's where I spend 99% of my time. For instance
> >> setting the database in single-user mode:
> >>
> >> ALTER DATABASE db SET SINGLE_USER WITH ROLLBACK IMMEDIATE
> >>
> >> By the way, one great feature in SSMS, is that you can always get a
> >> script for the command you are about to execute.
> >> --
> >> Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esq***@sommarskog.se
> >>
> >> Books Online for SQL Server 2005 at
> >> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/sql/2005/downloads/books.mspx
> >> Books Online for SQL Server 2000 at
> >> http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/books.mspx
> >>
>

16 Oct 2007 4:44 PM

Tibor Karaszi

Hard to say since 2007 is only in CTP yet, and I can remember from earlier releases that the GUI
parts is a pretty active area as soon as MS gets feedback from the public. I recommend that you
download the CTP and test it, but also not be surprised when you see changes in later CTPs/release.

--
Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
http://sqlblog.com/blogs/tibor_karaszi

Show quote

"MZeeshan" <mzeeshan@community.nospam> wrote in message
news:7AE591CE-EA08-4B0E-A5FD-4A15E6F66C85@microsoft.com...
> One final question: What should we expect in SQL 2008... any improvements say
> better usage of the right panel etc.?
> --
> Regards,
> MZeeshan
>
>
> "Tibor Karaszi" wrote:
>
>> I'm confident that you will like SSMS more and more as you work with it. Remember that an all new
>> tool takes time to adjust to.
>>
>> Of course, SSMS will mature over time, for instance based on feedback at
>> http://connect.microsoft.com/sqlserver. Some improvements were made in sp2, but a new version is
>> where MS has the chance to do more work.
>>
>> Also, both tools (EM and SSMS) are based on some framework. EM is based on MMC and a lot of the
>> behavior you see is because of this (for instance non-modal dialogs). SSMS is based on Visual
>> Studio
>> and I can imagine that with such a framework, you get certain behaviors, whether you like it or
>> not.
>> I'm not saying this to argue one way or another, just to add some information into the picture.
>>
>> --
>> Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
>> http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
>> http://sqlblog.com/blogs/tibor_karaszi
>>
>>
>> "MZeeshan" <mzeeshan@community.nospam> wrote in message
>> news:3D6A05AC-CE86-410F-99B9-9058976B245B@microsoft.com...
>> >I know how to write statements and queries; I was just trying to compare two
>> > GUI tools :)
>> >
>> > (b/w, as an MVP, are you implying that Microsoft is moving away from GUI
>> > based approach to command line?)
>> >
>> > And... I also agree that as a newer release the product will have more
>> > features than the old one...
>> >
>> > But, the point I was trying to make was the abrupt removal of some of the
>> > very good features available in SQL EM and its ease of use. And, this is just
>> > not my opinion as I wrote this after gathering similar feedback from other
>> > DBAs.
>> >
>> > May be, we used to SQL MS as we migrate totally towards 2005 but as of now
>> > we are in transition and I have this annoyance and frustration when I use SQL
>> > 2005 MS after using SQL 2000 EM.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Regards,
>> > MZeeshan
>> >
>> >
>> > "Erland Sommarskog" wrote:
>> >
>> >> MZeeshan (mzeeshan@community.nospam) writes:
>> >> > One of the key differences we immediately noticed after upgrading to SQL
>> >> > Server 2005 is the greatness of SQL Server 2000 EM -- its simplicity of
>> >> > design, ease of use and the concept 'less is more'
>> >> >
>> >> > For instance, if one wants to see the execution status of different
>> >> > jobs, just expand the 'Jobs' (in Management --> SQL Server Agent) and
>> >> > all the information appears on the right panel. No such luck with SQL
>> >> > Server 2005 MS where surprisingly the right panel is useless most of the
>> >> > time. The information requires multiple clicks to open multiple pop
>> >> > windows, cluttering the desktop. Simple changes like switch to 'Single
>> >> > User' mode requires search as it is hidden in the bottom of one of the
>> >> > database properties' selection.
>> >> >
>> >> > Does Microsoft recognize this? And, if yes, then are there any plans to
>> >> > make things SIMPLER? (can we somehow use SQL EM with 2005... I know it's
>> >> > a wishful thinking but it doesn't hurt to ask).
>> >>
>> >> Personally, I think Mgmt Studio is great leap forwards compared to EM,
>> >> which was a real piece of crap in my opinion. Modal dialogs all over
>> >> the place. If you edit stored procedures through EM, ANSI_NULLS and
>> >> QUOTED_IDENTIFIER were off by default which is non-standard and does
>> >> not work with some functionality in SQL Server. Then again, some crap
>> >> were brought over as-is to SSMS, for instance the dreadful table designer.
>> >> Yes, the look is different. The bugs are exactly the same though.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand compared to Query Analyzer, SSMS has several weaknesses,
>> >> but QA was also a tool that was written with more understanding of
>> >> how SQL Server works.
>> >>
>> >> As for the right panel being useless in SSMS, I don't agree. That's
>> >> they query window, and that's where I spend 99% of my time. For instance
>> >> setting the database in single-user mode:
>> >>
>> >> ALTER DATABASE db SET SINGLE_USER WITH ROLLBACK IMMEDIATE
>> >>
>> >> By the way, one great feature in SSMS, is that you can always get a
>> >> script for the command you are about to execute.
>> >> --
>> >> Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esq***@sommarskog.se
>> >>
>> >> Books Online for SQL Server 2005 at
>> >> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/sql/2005/downloads/books.mspx
>> >> Books Online for SQL Server 2000 at
>> >> http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/books.mspx
>> >>
>>

16 Oct 2007 9:43 PM

Erland Sommarskog

MZeeshan (mzeeshan@community.nospam) writes:

> I know how to write statements and queries; I was just trying to compare
> two GUI tools :)
>
> (b/w, as an MVP, are you implying that Microsoft is moving away from GUI
> based approach to command line?)

They are certainly not. Although I will have to confess that I sometimes
wished that they would. At least if they are not able to get things right,
which they still don't in all places in Mgmt Studio.

Actually questions about certain GUIs work are difficult for me and
several other SQL Server MVPs, because we never use them. I prefer to
use queries for about everything but setting up jobs. (And replication
if I was into it.) But from query window, not command line, I should
hasten to add.

And while point-and-click GUIs can be convenient for someone who
occasionally plays DBA left-hand, if you work with SQL Server regularly,
you should strive to use SQL commands as much as possible. Points and
clicks can't be stored and reused later, but scripts can.

> But, the point I was trying to make was the abrupt removal of some of
> the very good features available in SQL EM and its ease of use. And,
> this is just not my opinion as I wrote this after gathering similar
> feedback from other DBAs.

As Tibor said, it's a matter of habit. Personally I'm not that thrilled
of the job listing in EM 2000, because it's too cluttered, and columns
are often cut. I prefer to get it in a separate window that I can maximize
if I need.