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business objects vs. datasetsI'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 application. I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of questions regarding data access as this application is heavily data-centric around MSDE database. Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend datasets/datatables for my classes? This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. Custom Bus. Object: - Longer time to develop/test it. - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. - Extensible. Datasets - Faster/Easier. - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 years to adjust it to current framework. Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... Thanks ... Hi Penelope Dramas,
If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's called "Doing Objects in VB2005". You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more control over it. And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow up on to find out. So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm sure. Robin S. Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. ----------------------------------------------- Show quote "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > Hello, > > I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 > application. > > I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of > questions regarding data access as this application is heavily > data-centric around MSDE database. > > Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend > datasets/datatables for my classes? > > This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. > > Custom Bus. Object: > - Longer time to develop/test it. > - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. > - Extensible. > > Datasets > - Faster/Easier. > - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. > > I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq > initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 years > to adjust it to current framework. > > Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... > > > Thanks ... > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming out.
I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it myself and learn it better. Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good or there's no reason to panic :) ? Show quote "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... > Hi Penelope Dramas, > > If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book > coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows exactly > how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's called > "Doing Objects in VB2005". > > You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with business > objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more control over > it. > > And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly > typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer > passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. > > She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and removes > the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm not > exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow up on > to find out. > > So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information > will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm > sure. > > Robin S. > Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. > ----------------------------------------------- > "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in > message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >> Hello, >> >> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >> application. >> >> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >> data-centric around MSDE database. >> >> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >> datasets/datatables for my classes? >> >> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. >> >> Custom Bus. Object: >> - Longer time to develop/test it. >> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >> - Extensible. >> >> Datasets >> - Faster/Easier. >> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >> >> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq >> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 years >> to adjust it to current framework. >> >> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >> >> >> Thanks ... >> > > If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book
online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of it. Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not in the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they will do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it for huge amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest, considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data back and forth to SQLServer! Robin S. --------------------------------------- Show quote "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in message news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming > out. > > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked > into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it > myself and learn it better. > > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good > or there's no reason to panic :) ? > > > > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >> Hi Penelope Dramas, >> >> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book >> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's >> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >> >> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more >> control over it. >> >> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly >> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer >> passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >> >> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm >> not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow >> up on to find out. >> >> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information >> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm >> sure. >> >> Robin S. >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >> ----------------------------------------------- >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >>> application. >>> >>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>> >>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>> >>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. >>> >>> Custom Bus. Object: >>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >>> - Extensible. >>> >>> Datasets >>> - Faster/Easier. >>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >>> >>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq >>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 >>> years to adjust it to current framework. >>> >>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >>> >>> >>> Thanks ... >>> >> >> > > You can also check out Rockford Lhotka's books if you want to know more
about Business Object ; he's very well-known in the field. I have looked at them, but not read them. Deborah's book seemed a lot more "hands-on" to me, and less theory. Just my opinion. Robin S. --------------------------------- Show quote "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message news:qbWdnWcCwKHTvlHYnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@comcast.com... > If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book > online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of it. > Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. > > http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books > > I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not in > the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they > will do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it > for huge amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best > interest, considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a > viable alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer > data back and forth to SQLServer! > > Robin S. > --------------------------------------- > "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in > message news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming >> out. >> >> I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked >> into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it >> myself and learn it better. >> >> Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good >> or there's no reason to panic :) ? >> >> >> >> "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >> news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >>> Hi Penelope Dramas, >>> >>> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book >>> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >>> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's >>> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >>> >>> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >>> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more >>> control over it. >>> >>> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly >>> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data >>> layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >>> >>> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >>> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. >>> I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >>> follow up on to find out. >>> >>> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information >>> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, >>> I'm sure. >>> >>> Robin S. >>> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >>> ----------------------------------------------- >>> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >>> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >>>> application. >>>> >>>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >>>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>>> >>>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>>> >>>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. >>>> >>>> Custom Bus. Object: >>>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >>>> - Extensible. >>>> >>>> Datasets >>>> - Faster/Easier. >>>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >>>> >>>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq >>>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 >>>> years to adjust it to current framework. >>>> >>>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks ... >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > Penelope,
If you really want custom objects (most flexibility, extensible, etc.); there are costs involved. You will have to custom develop your business domain - this is what I think you mean when you say custom business objects. Rocky's books and framework are not the purest implementation of a business domain. I suggest you look at Eric Evans "Domain Driven Design" and/or Nillson's book on the same subject with C#. Using DataSets or DLINQ with LINQ; or NHibernate, .NetTiers, etc. will only get you so far. I have been researching this topic and implementing various application frameworks at this level. Do not tightely couple your business domain (custom objects) with the data layer (nor inherit from these objects to add behavior). Using DataSets or DLINQ or anything similiar is saying your business objects look like your database. These are (2) entirely different structures: 1. object-oriented and the other 2. relational. This impedence mismatch only causes some to go down (my opinion) the wrong path with trying to map business objects to generated objects based on the data model. This mapping creates unnessesary overhead. In order to add some balance to this email, I would think that using these other techniques appropriate if the tight coupling is ok; and the application will be committed to using this same technology for the lifetime of the application. If it is a requirement for the data persistence layer to be swapped out in the future - you only choice is NOT tightly couple these data objects with the other tiers of the application. This is why I'm such a fan of the custom business object; but this requires much planning and structuring. Regards, Matt Vaughn Show quote "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message news:Oc6dnXCRI7CYuVHYnZ2dnUVZ_o2vnZ2d@comcast.com... > You can also check out Rockford Lhotka's books if you want to know more > about Business Object ; he's very well-known in the field. I have looked > at them, but not read them. Deborah's book seemed a lot more "hands-on" to > me, and less theory. > > Just my opinion. > Robin S. > --------------------------------- > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > news:qbWdnWcCwKHTvlHYnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@comcast.com... >> If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book >> online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of it. >> Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books >> >> I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not in >> the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they >> will do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it >> for huge amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best >> interest, considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a >> viable alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer >> data back and forth to SQLServer! >> >> Robin S. >> --------------------------------------- >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >> message news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>> Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming >>> out. >>> >>> I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked >>> into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it >>> myself and learn it better. >>> >>> Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good >>> or there's no reason to panic :) ? >>> >>> >>> >>> "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >>> news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >>>> Hi Penelope Dramas, >>>> >>>> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book >>>> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >>>> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's >>>> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >>>> >>>> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >>>> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more >>>> control over it. >>>> >>>> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly >>>> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data >>>> layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >>>> >>>> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >>>> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. >>>> I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >>>> follow up on to find out. >>>> >>>> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information >>>> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, >>>> I'm sure. >>>> >>>> Robin S. >>>> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >>>> ----------------------------------------------- >>>> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >>>> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >>>>> application. >>>>> >>>>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >>>>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>>>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>>>> >>>>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>>>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>>>> >>>>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. >>>>> >>>>> Custom Bus. Object: >>>>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>>>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >>>>> - Extensible. >>>>> >>>>> Datasets >>>>> - Faster/Easier. >>>>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >>>>> >>>>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq >>>>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 >>>>> years to adjust it to current framework. >>>>> >>>>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks ... >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > "Matt Vaughn" <mjvau***@hotmail.com> wrote in Although I agree mapping data mapping introduces a performance penalty, it news:egVuPnYTHHA.1552@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl: > Using > DataSets or DLINQ or anything similiar is saying your business objects > look like your database. These are (2) entirely different structures: > 1. object-oriented and the other 2. relational. > > This impedence mismatch only causes some to go down (my opinion) the > wrong path with trying to map business objects to generated objects > based on the data model. This mapping creates unnessesary overhead. does make using database data intutiative. Matt Vaughn wrote:
> Penelope, of course you don't need to implement that by hand. > If you really want custom objects (most flexibility, extensible, > etc.); there are costs involved. You will have to custom develop your > business domain - this is what I think you mean when you say custom > business objects. Rocky's books and framework are not the purest > implementation of a business domain. > I suggest you look at Eric Evans "Domain Driven Design" and/or Please explain why you want to do this. Just saying someone shouldn't,> Nillson's book on the same subject with C#. Using DataSets or DLINQ > with LINQ; or NHibernate, .NetTiers, etc. will only get you so far. I > have been researching this topic and implementing various application > frameworks at this level. Do not tightely couple your business domain > (custom objects) with the data layer (nor inherit from these objects > to add behavior). sounds OK but in this case it's pretty odd. Take for example this: do you also subclass every grid control you use on your forms and implement an interface and place your grid using code in that subclass and place an instance of THAT class on your form? OR do you just place a grid on your form and add the grid using code to the form? If the latter, you're doing exactly what you say Penelope shouldn't do with data classes. There IS a coupling between BO's and the datalayer, if you like it or not: a BO represents an entity, and the entity instances are stored in the database. Didn't you just mean to avoid a coupling between entity class and persistence logic? Besides that, in DDD land there's a huge dispute about targeting repositories from entities: some say it's absolutely necessary and OK, others say it's downright wrong to do that. Calling repositories from entities is essentially coupling your data-oriented code to an entity's code. Who's right? Does it really matter? NO Of course it doesn't matter. You see, "thou shall not do this" is stupid with regards to writing software. People should be more pragmatic, as almost all of the people who claim that you shouldn't do this or that have no clue whatsoever WHY they claim that, but they read it somewhere on Fowler's site or in some book. Some people say that having a Save() method on an entity is BAD. Others find it NECESSARY. Are these people stupid? No, because they have this reasoning: the 'Save()' method is behavior, and it's behavior affecting the data inside the class, so it should be implemented on the class it saves. Otherwise, why have behavior B in the class but behavior C not in the class? Although I find persistence a service which should be applied to entities, and therefore should be external to entity classes so the coupling between persistence logic and the entity code itself is not there (we support both paradigms), I can understand why some people find it logical that persistence logic is like any other behavior and should be in the class. Who are we to judge that they're wrong, because on what ground do we have the authority to say they're wrong and they shouldn't like that approach? What if they find it logical so they can understand their own code better and work more efficient? > Using DataSets or DLINQ or anything similiar is You mix two things: table oriented data-access (datasets) and object> saying your business objects look like your database. These are (2) > entirely different structures: 1. object-oriented and the other 2. > relational. oriented dataaccess (linq-to-sql, o/r mappers). These two aren't the same. > This impedence mismatch only causes some to go down (my opinion) the 1) proof where the overhead is, otherwise don't claim there is> wrong path with trying to map business objects to generated objects > based on the data model. This mapping creates unnessesary overhead. unnecessary overhead. Dyn.proxy at runtime for example creates more overhead than you might think. 2) they're not mapping BO's to object based on the datamodel, they REVERSE engineer the datamodel into a relational model on the level of NIAM/ORM, so with inheritance. At that level, you can create classes for these entities similar to how you can create tables from an NIAM/ORM model. You can claim all you want but the entity model at the abstraction level of a NIAM/ORM model is what you start with too, so the starting point is the same. Sure, if you just generate a class per table, it's not really going anywhere, but for example LLBLGen Pro, of which I'm lead developer of, reverse engineers the datamodel to the level of NIAM where it allows you to have an entity model on the abstract level you start with when you create the BO's by hand. So what's the difference then? The only difference I see is that you write all the plumbing code by hand while with a proper tool it's done for you. > In order to add some balance to this email, I would think that using Swapping out a persistence layer is almost never done, and IF it's> these other techniques appropriate if the tight coupling is ok; and > the application will be committed to using this same technology for > the lifetime of the application. If it is a requirement for the data > persistence layer to be swapped out in the future - you only choice > is NOT tightly couple these data objects with the other tiers of the > application. This is why I'm such a fan of the custom business > object; but this requires much planning and structuring. done, it's as much work as swapping infragistics grids on 400 screens for devexpress' grids. Do you take measures so that you can swap out grids? Probably not, because why would you swap out grid X for grid Y ? Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of colliding everything into one big class and have fun, on the contrary. What I'm trying to make clear is that if people try to abstract away something, they really need to understand why they do that. And 'because person XYZ says so' is not a good reason. Abstracting away something creates overhead, if not at compile time then at least at runtime, a different application design which requires documentation for people not familiar with the abstraction, extra work to implement the abstraction etc. It's the same for persistence logic. I have never seen a business case where the persistence layer had to be swappable because it would be essential for the application. You see, it's hard to do that, as O/R mappers today aren't just persistence layers anymore (well, nhibernate perhaps) but entity management systems. People take for granted that if they do: myOrder.Customer = myCustomer; they get myOrder.CustomerID synced with myCustomer.CustomerID. Which code makes that happen? Not your code, unless you write it by hand. Which is not that easy, because: myOrder.CustomerID = _someOtherCustomerID; has to make myOrder.Customer become null, because otherwise your CustomerID and Customer would be out of sync. Silly stuff? Not at all. People who use mature o/r mapper systems know this code can help them out throughout their OWN code. Take the way nhibernate forces you to instantiate an entity. You always have to use a factory, to get the dyn. proxy. All fine, but what if you swap out nhibernate for something else and you don't need to use the factory anymore. Doesn't that factory then look unnatural, because you use 'new' for every other object instantiation? The world isnt black/white. There are some good ideas floating around and it's key to get familiar with these ideas, but it's also key to understand where they come from and WHY A is good and B is bad in context C, because good/bad is always context bound. FB -- Show quote------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lead developer of LLBLGen Pro, the productive O/R mapper for .NET LLBLGen Pro website: http://www.llblgen.com My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma Microsoft MVP (C#) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Regards, > > Matt Vaughn > > > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > news:Oc6dnXCRI7CYuVHYnZ2dnUVZ_o2vnZ2d@comcast.com... > > You can also check out Rockford Lhotka's books if you want to know > > more about Business Object ; he's very well-known in the field. I > > have looked at them, but not read them. Deborah's book seemed a > > lot more "hands-on" to me, and less theory. > > > > Just my opinion. > > Robin S. > > --------------------------------- > >"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > news:qbWdnWcCwKHTvlHYnZ2dnUVZ_syunZ2d@comcast.com... > > > If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah > > > Kurata's book online. I understand it has been made available, > > > or at least parts of it. Amazon says it's going to be available > > > 2/21. > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Tech > > > nology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-285 > > > 8380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books > > > > > > I can't even imagine that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least > > > not in the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who > > > knows what they will do. They seem headed in the XML direction, > > > but I just don't see it for huge amounts of data. Plus, it would > > > hardly be in their best interest, considering how hard they have > > > worked to make SQLServer a viable alternative to Oracle. So > > > there has to be some way to transfer data back and forth to > > > SQLServer! > > > > > > Robin S. > > > --------------------------------------- > >>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in > message news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > > > > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when > > > > it's coming out. > > > > > > > > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have > > > > already looked into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I > > > > would like to do it myself and learn it better. > > > > > > > > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET > > > > for good or there's no reason to panic :) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>"RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... > > > > > Hi Penelope Dramas, > > > > > > > > > > If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a > > > > > new book coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft > > > > > MVP) that shows exactly how to do that. I read it, and am > > > > > using that methodology. It's called "Doing Objects in > > > > > VB2005". > > > > > > > > > > You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it > > > > > with business objects, but the data access is tighter > > > > > because you have more control over it. > > > > > > > > > > And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who > > > > > uses strongly typed datasets. She still has her design in > > > > > 3-layers, but her data layer passes back strongly typed > > > > > datasets for use in the UI. > > > > > > > > > > She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures > > > > > and removes the table adapter because they only use stored > > > > > procedures. I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's > > > > > something I want to follow up on to find out. > > > > > > > > > > So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this > > > > > information will help in some way. Other people will > > > > > definitely have an opinion, I'm sure. > > > > > > > > > > Robin S. > > > > > Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > >>>>"Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote > in message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an > > > > > > old VB6 application. > > > > > > > > > > > > I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask > > > > > > couple of questions regarding data access as this > > > > > > application is heavily data-centric around MSDE database. > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend > > > > > > datasets/datatables for my classes? > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's > > > > > > correct way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Custom Bus. Object: > > > > > > - Longer time to develop/test it. > > > > > > - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. > > > > > > - Extensible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Datasets > > > > > > - Faster/Easier. > > > > > > - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing > > > > > > WPF/Linq initiative and don't want to end up rewriting > > > > > > business layer in 2-3 years to adjust it to current > > > > > > framework. > > > > > > > > > > > > Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray might.
I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari online at home. Jason Vermillion Show quote "RobinS" wrote: > If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book > online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of it. > Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. > > http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books > > I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not in > the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they will > do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it for huge > amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest, > considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable > alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data back > and forth to SQLServer! > > Robin S. > --------------------------------------- > "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in message > news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming > > out. > > > > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked > > into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it > > myself and learn it better. > > > > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good > > or there's no reason to panic :) ? > > > > > > > > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... > >> Hi Penelope Dramas, > >> > >> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book > >> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows > >> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's > >> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". > >> > >> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with > >> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more > >> control over it. > >> > >> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly > >> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer > >> passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. > >> > >> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and > >> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm > >> not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow > >> up on to find out. > >> > >> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information > >> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm > >> sure. > >> > >> Robin S. > >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. > >> ----------------------------------------------- > >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in > >> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 > >>> application. > >>> > >>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of > >>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily > >>> data-centric around MSDE database. > >>> > >>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend > >>> datasets/datatables for my classes? > >>> > >>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. > >>> > >>> Custom Bus. Object: > >>> - Longer time to develop/test it. > >>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. > >>> - Extensible. > >>> > >>> Datasets > >>> - Faster/Easier. > >>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. > >>> > >>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq > >>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 > >>> years to adjust it to current framework. > >>> > >>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks ... > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in Canada? If
it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has that capability. Robin S. ------------------------------- Show quote "Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermill***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@microsoft.com... > > Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray > might. > I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari > online > at home. > > Jason Vermillion > > "RobinS" wrote: >> If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book >> online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of >> it. >> Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books >> >> I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not >> in >> the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they >> will >> do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it for >> huge >> amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest, >> considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable >> alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data >> back >> and forth to SQLServer! >> >> Robin S. >> --------------------------------------- >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >> message >> news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's >> > coming >> > out. >> > >> > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already >> > looked >> > into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it >> > myself and learn it better. >> > >> > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for >> > good >> > or there's no reason to panic :) ? >> > >> > >> > >> > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >> > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >> >> Hi Penelope Dramas, >> >> >> >> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book >> >> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >> >> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. >> >> It's >> >> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >> >> >> >> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >> >> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have >> >> more >> >> control over it. >> >> >> >> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses >> >> strongly >> >> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data >> >> layer >> >> passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >> >> >> >> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >> >> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. >> >> I'm >> >> not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >> >> follow >> >> up on to find out. >> >> >> >> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this >> >> information >> >> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, >> >> I'm >> >> sure. >> >> >> >> Robin S. >> >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >> >> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >> >>> Hello, >> >>> >> >>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >> >>> application. >> >>> >> >>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >> >>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >> >>> data-centric around MSDE database. >> >>> >> >>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >> >>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >> >>> >> >>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct >> >>> way. >> >>> >> >>> Custom Bus. Object: >> >>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >> >>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >> >>> - Extensible. >> >>> >> >>> Datasets >> >>> - Faster/Easier. >> >>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >> >>> >> >>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq >> >>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 >> >>> years to adjust it to current framework. >> >>> >> >>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Thanks ... >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> I'm in California south of san francisco.
I'm not a big fan of ebooks but it let's you read through a book and see if it is worth picking up a paper copy. Jason Vermillion Show quote "RobinS" wrote: > Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in Canada? If > it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has that > capability. > > Robin S. > ------------------------------- > "Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermill***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in > message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@microsoft.com... > > > > Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray > > might. > > I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari > > online > > at home. > > > > Jason Vermillion > > > > "RobinS" wrote: > >> If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's book > >> online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of > >> it. > >> Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books > >> > >> I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least not > >> in > >> the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what they > >> will > >> do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it for > >> huge > >> amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest, > >> considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable > >> alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data > >> back > >> and forth to SQLServer! > >> > >> Robin S. > >> --------------------------------------- > >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in > >> message > >> news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > >> > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's > >> > coming > >> > out. > >> > > >> > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already > >> > looked > >> > into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it > >> > myself and learn it better. > >> > > >> > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for > >> > good > >> > or there's no reason to panic :) ? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > >> > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... > >> >> Hi Penelope Dramas, > >> >> > >> >> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book > >> >> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows > >> >> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. > >> >> It's > >> >> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". > >> >> > >> >> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with > >> >> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have > >> >> more > >> >> control over it. > >> >> > >> >> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses > >> >> strongly > >> >> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data > >> >> layer > >> >> passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. > >> >> > >> >> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and > >> >> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. > >> >> I'm > >> >> not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to > >> >> follow > >> >> up on to find out. > >> >> > >> >> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this > >> >> information > >> >> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, > >> >> I'm > >> >> sure. > >> >> > >> >> Robin S. > >> >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. > >> >> ----------------------------------------------- > >> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in > >> >> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > >> >>> Hello, > >> >>> > >> >>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 > >> >>> application. > >> >>> > >> >>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of > >> >>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily > >> >>> data-centric around MSDE database. > >> >>> > >> >>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend > >> >>> datasets/datatables for my classes? > >> >>> > >> >>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct > >> >>> way. > >> >>> > >> >>> Custom Bus. Object: > >> >>> - Longer time to develop/test it. > >> >>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. > >> >>> - Extensible. > >> >>> > >> >>> Datasets > >> >>> - Faster/Easier. > >> >>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. > >> >>> > >> >>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq > >> >>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 > >> >>> years to adjust it to current framework. > >> >>> > >> >>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Thanks ... > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > Cool. I live in the East Bay. You're right, it's nice to be able to see the
book before you buy it, and I'd rather have a paper copy that I can put markers in, and write in. Thanks for the tip. Robin S. Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. --------------------------------------------------------- Show quote "Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermill***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:FC06DFF4-D1D4-449C-8CCA-4E4F90457F0C@microsoft.com... > > I'm in California south of san francisco. > > I'm not a big fan of ebooks but it let's you read through a book and see > if > it is worth picking up a paper copy. > > Jason Vermillion > > "RobinS" wrote: > >> Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in Canada? >> If >> it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has that >> capability. >> >> Robin S. >> ------------------------------- >> "Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermill***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in >> message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@microsoft.com... >> > >> > Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray >> > might. >> > I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari >> > online >> > at home. >> > >> > Jason Vermillion >> > >> > "RobinS" wrote: >> >> If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's >> >> book >> >> online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of >> >> it. >> >> Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books >> >> >> >> I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least >> >> not >> >> in >> >> the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what >> >> they >> >> will >> >> do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it >> >> for >> >> huge >> >> amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest, >> >> considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable >> >> alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data >> >> back >> >> and forth to SQLServer! >> >> >> >> Robin S. >> >> --------------------------------------- >> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >> >> message >> >> news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> >> > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's >> >> > coming >> >> > out. >> >> > >> >> > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already >> >> > looked >> >> > into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it >> >> > myself and learn it better. >> >> > >> >> > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for >> >> > good >> >> > or there's no reason to panic :) ? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >> >> > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >> >> >> Hi Penelope Dramas, >> >> >> >> >> >> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new >> >> >> book >> >> >> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >> >> >> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. >> >> >> It's >> >> >> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >> >> >> >> >> >> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >> >> >> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have >> >> >> more >> >> >> control over it. >> >> >> >> >> >> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses >> >> >> strongly >> >> >> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data >> >> >> layer >> >> >> passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >> >> >> >> >> >> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >> >> >> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored >> >> >> procedures. >> >> >> I'm >> >> >> not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >> >> >> follow >> >> >> up on to find out. >> >> >> >> >> >> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this >> >> >> information >> >> >> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an >> >> >> opinion, >> >> >> I'm >> >> >> sure. >> >> >> >> >> >> Robin S. >> >> >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote >> >> >> in >> >> >> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >> >> >>> Hello, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old >> >> >>> VB6 >> >> >>> application. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple >> >> >>> of >> >> >>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >> >> >>> data-centric around MSDE database. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >> >> >>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct >> >> >>> way. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Custom Bus. Object: >> >> >>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >> >> >>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >> >> >>> - Extensible. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Datasets >> >> >>> - Faster/Easier. >> >> >>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing >> >> >>> WPF/Linq >> >> >>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in >> >> >>> 2-3 >> >> >>> years to adjust it to current framework. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Thanks ... >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Robin,
When I purchased my copy of Start to Finish Visual Basic, I got a free 30 day trial of the Safari system. Did you not receive that with your copy? And like yourself, I do prefer the paper copy... more than likely because I'm old and set in my ways. hehehe Bruce Show quote "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message news:8uidnUKtF9onlVPYnZ2dnUVZ_r6vnZ2d@comcast.com... > Cool. I live in the East Bay. You're right, it's nice to be able to see > the book before you buy it, and I'd rather have a paper copy that I can > put markers in, and write in. Thanks for the tip. > > Robin S. > Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. > --------------------------------------------------------- > "Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermill***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in > message news:FC06DFF4-D1D4-449C-8CCA-4E4F90457F0C@microsoft.com... >> >> I'm in California south of san francisco. >> >> I'm not a big fan of ebooks but it let's you read through a book and see >> if >> it is worth picking up a paper copy. >> >> Jason Vermillion >> >> "RobinS" wrote: >> >>> Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in Canada? >>> If >>> it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has that >>> capability. >>> >>> Robin S. >>> ------------------------------- >>> "Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermill***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in >>> message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@microsoft.com... >>> > >>> > Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray >>> > might. >>> > I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari >>> > online >>> > at home. >>> > >>> > Jason Vermillion >>> > >>> > "RobinS" wrote: >>> >> If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's >>> >> book >>> >> online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts of >>> >> it. >>> >> Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. >>> >> >>> >> http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books >>> >> >>> >> I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least >>> >> not >>> >> in >>> >> the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what >>> >> they >>> >> will >>> >> do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it >>> >> for >>> >> huge >>> >> amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest, >>> >> considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable >>> >> alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer data >>> >> back >>> >> and forth to SQLServer! >>> >> >>> >> Robin S. >>> >> --------------------------------------- >>> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >>> >> message >>> >> news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>> >> > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's >>> >> > coming >>> >> > out. >>> >> > >>> >> > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already >>> >> > looked >>> >> > into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it >>> >> > myself and learn it better. >>> >> > >>> >> > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for >>> >> > good >>> >> > or there's no reason to panic :) ? >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >>> >> > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >>> >> >> Hi Penelope Dramas, >>> >> >> >>> >> >> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new >>> >> >> book >>> >> >> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >>> >> >> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. >>> >> >> It's >>> >> >> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >>> >> >> >>> >> >> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >>> >> >> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have >>> >> >> more >>> >> >> control over it. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses >>> >> >> strongly >>> >> >> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data >>> >> >> layer >>> >> >> passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >>> >> >> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored >>> >> >> procedures. >>> >> >> I'm >>> >> >> not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >>> >> >> follow >>> >> >> up on to find out. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this >>> >> >> information >>> >> >> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an >>> >> >> opinion, >>> >> >> I'm >>> >> >> sure. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Robin S. >>> >> >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >>> >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >>> >> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote >>> >> >> in >>> >> >> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>> >> >>> Hello, >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old >>> >> >>> VB6 >>> >> >>> application. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple >>> >> >>> of >>> >> >>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>> >> >>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>> >> >>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct >>> >> >>> way. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Custom Bus. Object: >>> >> >>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>> >> >>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >>> >> >>> - Extensible. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Datasets >>> >> >>> - Faster/Easier. >>> >> >>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing >>> >> >>> WPF/Linq >>> >> >>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in >>> >> >>> 2-3 >>> >> >>> years to adjust it to current framework. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Thanks ... >>> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> > > Yes, I probably did, but apparently I didn't notice. I'll check it out.
Thanks! Robin S. -------------------------------------------- Show quote "Bruce W. Darby" <kraco***@atcomcast.net> wrote in message news:yL-dnQQhhNQkq1PYnZ2dnUVZ_uqvnZ2d@comcast.com... > Robin, > > When I purchased my copy of Start to Finish Visual Basic, I got a free 30 > day trial of the Safari system. Did you not receive that with your copy? > And like yourself, I do prefer the paper copy... more than likely because > I'm old and set in my ways. hehehe > > Bruce > > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > news:8uidnUKtF9onlVPYnZ2dnUVZ_r6vnZ2d@comcast.com... >> Cool. I live in the East Bay. You're right, it's nice to be able to see >> the book before you buy it, and I'd rather have a paper copy that I can >> put markers in, and write in. Thanks for the tip. >> >> Robin S. >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> "Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermill***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in >> message news:FC06DFF4-D1D4-449C-8CCA-4E4F90457F0C@microsoft.com... >>> >>> I'm in California south of san francisco. >>> >>> I'm not a big fan of ebooks but it let's you read through a book and >>> see if >>> it is worth picking up a paper copy. >>> >>> Jason Vermillion >>> >>> "RobinS" wrote: >>> >>>> Oh, that's really cool. Is that CA as in California, or CA as in >>>> Canada? If >>>> it's California, I'm heading down to the library to see if mine has >>>> that >>>> capability. >>>> >>>> Robin S. >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> "Jason Vermillion" <JasonVermill***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote >>>> in >>>> message news:89904698-E254-41C5-9B01-4E70BF32B5A5@microsoft.com... >>>> > >>>> > Also, If you don't have a subscription to Safari, your local libray >>>> > might. >>>> > I checked my county libray here in CA and I can get access to Safari >>>> > online >>>> > at home. >>>> > >>>> > Jason Vermillion >>>> > >>>> > "RobinS" wrote: >>>> >> If you have a subscription to Safari, you can see Deborah Kurata's >>>> >> book >>>> >> online. I understand it has been made available, or at least parts >>>> >> of >>>> >> it. >>>> >> Amazon says it's going to be available 2/21. >>>> >> >>>> >> http://www.amazon.com/Objects-Visual-Addison-Wesley-Microsoft-Technology/dp/0321320492/sr=8-1/qid=1171006112/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2858380-8860814?ie=UTF8&s=books >>>> >> >>>> >> I can't even *imagine* that Microsoft would drop ADO.Net, at least >>>> >> not >>>> >> in >>>> >> the next couple of years. Farther ahead than that, who knows what >>>> >> they >>>> >> will >>>> >> do. They seem headed in the XML direction, but I just don't see it >>>> >> for >>>> >> huge >>>> >> amounts of data. Plus, it would hardly be in their best interest, >>>> >> considering how hard they have worked to make SQLServer a viable >>>> >> alternative to Oracle. So there has to be *some* way to transfer >>>> >> data >>>> >> back >>>> >> and forth to SQLServer! >>>> >> >>>> >> Robin S. >>>> >> --------------------------------------- >>>> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >>>> >> message >>>> >> news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>>> >> > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's >>>> >> > coming >>>> >> > out. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already >>>> >> > looked >>>> >> > into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do >>>> >> > it >>>> >> > myself and learn it better. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > good >>>> >> > or there's no reason to panic :) ? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >>>> >> > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >>>> >> >> Hi Penelope Dramas, >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new >>>> >> >> book >>>> >> >> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that >>>> >> >> shows >>>> >> >> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that >>>> >> >> methodology. >>>> >> >> It's >>>> >> >> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >>>> >> >> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you >>>> >> >> have >>>> >> >> more >>>> >> >> control over it. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses >>>> >> >> strongly >>>> >> >> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her >>>> >> >> data >>>> >> >> layer >>>> >> >> passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures >>>> >> >> and >>>> >> >> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored >>>> >> >> procedures. >>>> >> >> I'm >>>> >> >> not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >>>> >> >> follow >>>> >> >> up on to find out. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this >>>> >> >> information >>>> >> >> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an >>>> >> >> opinion, >>>> >> >> I'm >>>> >> >> sure. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Robin S. >>>> >> >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >>>> >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >>>> >> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote >>>> >> >> in >>>> >> >> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>>> >> >>> Hello, >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old >>>> >> >>> VB6 >>>> >> >>> application. >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask >>>> >> >>> couple of >>>> >> >>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>>> >> >>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>>> >> >>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's >>>> >> >>> correct >>>> >> >>> way. >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Custom Bus. Object: >>>> >> >>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>>> >> >>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >>>> >> >>> - Extensible. >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Datasets >>>> >> >>> - Faster/Easier. >>>> >> >>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing >>>> >> >>> WPF/Linq >>>> >> >>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in >>>> >> >>> 2-3 >>>> >> >>> years to adjust it to current framework. >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Thanks ... >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:02:30 -0800, "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote: And read while sitting on the throne....>Cool. I live in the East Bay. You're right, it's nice to be able to see the >book before you buy it, and I'd rather have a paper copy that I can put >markers in, and write in. Thanks for the tip. > >Robin S. >Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >--------------------------------------------------------- [snip] Good luck with your project, Otis Mukinfus http://www.otismukinfus.com http://www.arltex.com http://www.tomchilders.com http://www.n5ge.com Good point. But there's never a highlighter when you need one. ;-)
Robin S. ---------------------------- Show quote "Otis Mukinfus" <phoney.email.addr***@phoney.com> wrote in message news:eslus2l7ud73tpdcv0mtad5bc3reg1ndks@4ax.com... > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:02:30 -0800, "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> > wrote: > >>Cool. I live in the East Bay. You're right, it's nice to be able to see >>the >>book before you buy it, and I'd rather have a paper copy that I can put >>markers in, and write in. Thanks for the tip. >> >>Robin S. >>Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >>--------------------------------------------------------- > [snip] > > And read while sitting on the throne.... > > Good luck with your project, > > Otis Mukinfus > > http://www.otismukinfus.com > http://www.arltex.com > http://www.tomchilders.com > http://www.n5ge.com Penelope,
If you think about buying Deborah's book, than certainly don't forget to buy the books from David and Bill (Sceppa and Vaughn). The last two are .Net specialists as long as .Net exist. Cor Show quote "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> schreef in bericht news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming > out. > > I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked > into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it myself > and learn it better. > > Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good or > there's no reason to panic :) ? > > > > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message > news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >> Hi Penelope Dramas, >> >> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book >> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's >> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >> >> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with business >> objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more control >> over it. >> >> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly >> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data layer >> passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >> >> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and removes >> the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. I'm not >> exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to follow up on >> to find out. >> >> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information >> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, I'm >> sure. >> >> Robin S. >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >> ----------------------------------------------- >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >>> application. >>> >>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>> >>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>> >>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. >>> >>> Custom Bus. Object: >>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >>> - Extensible. >>> >>> Datasets >>> - Faster/Easier. >>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >>> >>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq >>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 >>> years to adjust it to current framework. >>> >>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >>> >>> >>> Thanks ... >>> >> >> > > Just to clarify, they are data guys, not Business Objects guys. But both of
their books are certainly exemplary. Robin S. Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. ----------------------------------------------- Show quote "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message news:O0CNDkPTHHA.996@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > Penelope, > > If you think about buying Deborah's book, than certainly don't forget to > buy the books from David and Bill (Sceppa and Vaughn). The last two are > .Net specialists as long as .Net exist. > > Cor > > "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> schreef in > bericht news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming >> out. >> >> I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked >> into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it >> myself and learn it better. >> >> Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good >> or there's no reason to panic :) ? >> >> >> >> "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >> news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >>> Hi Penelope Dramas, >>> >>> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book >>> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >>> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's >>> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >>> >>> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >>> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more >>> control over it. >>> >>> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly >>> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data >>> layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >>> >>> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >>> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. >>> I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >>> follow up on to find out. >>> >>> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information >>> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, >>> I'm sure. >>> >>> Robin S. >>> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >>> ----------------------------------------------- >>> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >>> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >>>> application. >>>> >>>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >>>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>>> >>>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>>> >>>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. >>>> >>>> Custom Bus. Object: >>>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >>>> - Extensible. >>>> >>>> Datasets >>>> - Faster/Easier. >>>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >>>> >>>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq >>>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 >>>> years to adjust it to current framework. >>>> >>>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks ... >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > Robin,
> Just to clarify, they are data guys, not Business Objects guys. But both Read the subject, you never can compare with only one factor.> of their books are certainly exemplary. :-) CorShow quote "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> schreef in bericht news:cpKdnVkLaeBslVPYnZ2dnUVZ_revnZ2d@comcast.com... > Just to clarify, they are data guys, not Business Objects guys. But both > of their books are certainly exemplary. > > Robin S. > Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. > ----------------------------------------------- > "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message > news:O0CNDkPTHHA.996@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... >> Penelope, >> >> If you think about buying Deborah's book, than certainly don't forget to >> buy the books from David and Bill (Sceppa and Vaughn). The last two are >> .Net specialists as long as .Net exist. >> >> Cor >> >> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> schreef in >> bericht news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>> Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's coming >>> out. >>> >>> I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already looked >>> into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to do it >>> myself and learn it better. >>> >>> Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for good >>> or there's no reason to panic :) ? >>> >>> >>> >>> "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >>> news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >>>> Hi Penelope Dramas, >>>> >>>> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book >>>> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >>>> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. It's >>>> called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >>>> >>>> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >>>> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have more >>>> control over it. >>>> >>>> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses strongly >>>> typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but her data >>>> layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >>>> >>>> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >>>> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. >>>> I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >>>> follow up on to find out. >>>> >>>> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this information >>>> will help in some way. Other people will definitely have an opinion, >>>> I'm sure. >>>> >>>> Robin S. >>>> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >>>> ----------------------------------------------- >>>> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >>>> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >>>>> application. >>>>> >>>>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >>>>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>>>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>>>> >>>>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>>>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>>>> >>>>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct way. >>>>> >>>>> Custom Bus. Object: >>>>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>>>> - Loosely coupled with DataLayer. >>>>> - Extensible. >>>>> >>>>> Datasets >>>>> - Faster/Easier. >>>>> - Tightly coupled with DataLayer. >>>>> >>>>> I'm afraid that Microsoft is dropping ADO.NET and pushing WPF/Linq >>>>> initiative and don't want to end up rewriting business layer in 2-3 >>>>> years to adjust it to current framework. >>>>> >>>>> Would like to hear your opinion and experiences... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks ... >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > I've read the Sceppa book, but while it covers ADO.net and database access and so forth in full, it's only related to business objects insofar as storing the info after you've collected it. Technically, all that stuff should be in one's data access layer anyway. It's definitely a great book. I mostly use stored procedures and paramaterized queries, and he definitely covers that. I haven't read Bill's book, although I seem to keep visiting it at the bookstore just to look at it. I haven't decided if I need it yet, so I haven't bought it yet. Again, it's about SQLServer, etc., not how to create a 3-layer application model. Robin S. ------------------------------------ Show quote "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message news:%2351zT6UTHHA.496@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > Robin, > >> Just to clarify, they are data guys, not Business Objects guys. But both >> of their books are certainly exemplary. > > Read the subject, you never can compare with only one factor. > > :-) > > Cor > > "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> schreef in bericht > news:cpKdnVkLaeBslVPYnZ2dnUVZ_revnZ2d@comcast.com... >> Just to clarify, they are data guys, not Business Objects guys. But both >> of their books are certainly exemplary. >> >> Robin S. >> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >> ----------------------------------------------- >> "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message >> news:O0CNDkPTHHA.996@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... >>> Penelope, >>> >>> If you think about buying Deborah's book, than certainly don't forget >>> to buy the books from David and Bill (Sceppa and Vaughn). The last two >>> are .Net specialists as long as .Net exist. >>> >>> Cor >>> >>> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> schreef in >>> bericht news:uefNZl8SHHA.388@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>>> Thank you all for insight, I will buy that book feb 21 when it's >>>> coming out. >>>> >>>> I don't think i will go with any code generators, we have already >>>> looked into DevExpress XPO as well as CodeSmith but I would like to >>>> do it myself and learn it better. >>>> >>>> Am I right when I'm thinking that Microsoft might drop ADO.NET for >>>> good or there's no reason to panic :) ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "RobinS" <RobinS@NoSpam.yah.none> wrote in message >>>> news:UcOdnelJlZs09VfYnZ2dnUVZ_veinZ2d@comcast.com... >>>>> Hi Penelope Dramas, >>>>> >>>>> If you want to rewrite it using Business Objects, there's a new book >>>>> coming out next month by Deborah Kurata (Microsoft MVP) that shows >>>>> exactly how to do that. I read it, and am using that methodology. >>>>> It's called "Doing Objects in VB2005". >>>>> >>>>> You can kind of go either way. I think it's harder to do it with >>>>> business objects, but the data access is tighter because you have >>>>> more control over it. >>>>> >>>>> And yet I know of another MVP leading a large project who uses >>>>> strongly typed datasets. She still has her design in 3-layers, but >>>>> her data layer passes back strongly typed datasets for use in the UI. >>>>> >>>>> She generates the datasets herself from the stored procedures and >>>>> removes the table adapter because they *only* use stored procedures. >>>>> I'm not exactly certain how she does that, it's something I want to >>>>> follow up on to find out. >>>>> >>>>> So I don't have a definitive answer for you, but maybe this >>>>> information will help in some way. Other people will definitely have >>>>> an opinion, I'm sure. >>>>> >>>>> Robin S. >>>>> Ts'i mahnu uterna ot twan ot geifur hingts uto. >>>>> ----------------------------------------------- >>>>> "Penelope Dramas" <penelopeDOTdramasATpro-transportDOTcom> wrote in >>>>> message news:eBhk8WwSHHA.4076@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm in a front of very serious .net redesign/rewrite of an old VB6 >>>>>> application. >>>>>> >>>>>> I had been asked to make it .NET 2.0 and would like to ask couple of >>>>>> questions regarding data access as this application is heavily >>>>>> data-centric around MSDE database. >>>>>> >>>>>> Would it be better to use custom business objects or extend >>>>>> datasets/datatables for my classes? >>>>>> >>>>>> This is what I'm thinking and just wanted to know if it's correct >>>>>> way. >>>>>> >>>>>> Custom Bus. Object: >>>>>> - Longer time to develop/test it. >>>& | |||||||||||||||||||||||
